After going through my last post Prof.Sangal replied to my post via e-mail. As per his request I am putting his reply on my blog. I am writing it as separate post because there is too much clutter on the previous post and I felt that his reply may be lost in the mess. The reply is posted as is.
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Dear Rishabh,
This is to provide clarifications to many points of misunderstanding.
Note that I am addressing only the substantive issues, I am not responding to many speculative statements and remarks.
(1)
When IIIT-H took the decision to introduce Human Values as an essential part of the curriculum, we placed 4 conditions which must be satisfied by the content in such courses. The content must be:
A. Logical - Should follow reasoning and should be open to discussion and questioning in the class.
B. Verifiable - One should be able to observe and verify through experiments by the self. (No mystic element!)
C. Universal - Applicable to all human beings without regard to their caste, creed, colour, religion, etc. (No sect of any kind!)
D. Human - Should be for the good of the human being.
Jeevan Vidya was chosen because it satisfied all the above. IIIT-H is open to using any other philosophy which satisfies the above.
(2)
It was also decided that Human Values course must be taught without preaching or dos and donts.
In JV shivir, there is no insistence on anyone to accept what is being said. In fact, on the first day itself, it is written in bold, asking people not to accept, but examine and evaluate. They should accept only if they find them ok after evaluation!
(You have said that JV asks people to do good, control their desires, etc. But JV never gives any dos and donts including these two! It only says "what can make a human being happy", and there too, it says that one should accept only after verifying on one's own right. Have you attended a complete JV shivir as yet? You can attend a full shivir, and indeed point out to the teacher, if any do's and dont's are being given.)
(3)
When you use the word "religion" for JV, it suggests that it is sectarian. It is normally understood that if you are a Hindu you cannot be a Muslim at the same time, and if you are a Sikh you cannot be a Christian, etc. Jeevan Vidya is not like that. Whatever be your religion, you can follow or relate to JV. Most people are able to connect JV with whatever religion they are practising. As a philosophy, it is even "open source". (See the attached article on Evaluating a Philosophy by Vineesh Gupta.)
Today, it is "fashionable" to say that I do not believe in any philosophy or thought, and that I am free. In such a prevailing situation, one might brand others who might have come to some conclusions as "religionists", and pass snide remarks at them. But one should examine whether that is an acceptable mode of conduct.
(4)
Education means not just training in a narrow discipline but developing an ability to think critically and independently. It implies an ability to separate "essence" from "form" when faced with any situation in life, not limited to problems in a narrow discipline alone. (It also means developing the strength to take decisions, particularly about one's own life, and acting on them.)
An academic institution strives for excellence in education and research. It functions in a cultural and social milieu, using accepted practises and procedures. In higher education today, accepted practise is to have a 4-year curriculum with semester-long courses with credits. We accept it and implement it at IIIT-H, even when 4-year duration or semester long courses might not fit everybody. Are we forcing every student to follow it? Probably we are, because of the currently accepted practises of society. But is "forcing" the right word to describe the situation.
In a curriculum, the courses are designed to cover the breadth and depth of educational goals. In the existing curricula, many courses are compulsary whether data structures, communication theory, or human values. We are even asked at times why are we forcing students to learn such and such a course in their discipline, when it is not needed for most jobs? We are also asked why do we have broad education with Human Values? But all this is the goal of education. Is "forcing" the right word in such a situation. (It goes without saying that Human Values should be conducted without preaching.)
Society today puts a lot of pressure on the individual, without taking into account their interest. Students succumb to this pressure, and take admission to areas they have no aptitude for, or come into higher education even when they do not wish to study! As a result, for many things they perceive being forced when these things are a part of education. (We would like to help by making it possible for the students to choose their area of interest, to the extent we have the facilities and disciplines. IIIT-H has examples of such help in the past. But doing something is difficult when the student has no interest in higher study and perceives the entire curriculum as "being forced".)
As the society and the individuals evolve, we hope that we will move towards a situation, where only the truly interested come for higher education, pursuing the areas they love, in a journey of joy.
- Rajeev Sangal
14 January 2010
80 comments:
Dear Sir,
1) Your reply seems incomplete to me, Rishabh raised alot of questions in his post whereas in your post, you only talk about, "Why Human Values\JV is a compulsory course?" Hope to see answer/clarifications for rest of the points raised by Rishabh.
2) When making the statement like "When IIIT-H took the decision to introduce Human Values as an essential part of the curriculum", what do you mean by 'IIIT-H' here?
Is it only "few faculty" members?
regards,
APS
JV is not compulsory ... we just make up reasons to rusticate students, and force them to attend it/promote it.
Anand
Yawn! Now I wonder .. am I the only one who don't give a dam* about Jay Vee ?
what's the fuss all about ?
everyone attending IIIT is above 18 years of age. They are legally held completely responsible for their actions, what then is rational behind teaching/guiding/educating/indoctrinating people with any kind of a value system.
Leave them free to decide what is good/evil, moral/amoral and ethical/unethical for themselves.
Or is their no faith? cause that is a bigger problem them.
Dear Akshay,
Let me answer your second question first. Introduction of Human Values
courses in BTech curriculum as an essential component was adopted
unanimously in 2005 by the faculty meeting. It was later ratified
unanimously by the Academic Council. (The Academic Council consists of
many senior faculty members of IIIT-H as well as people from industry
and other academic institutions.)
Now to your first question that my answer appears to be incomplete
with respect to many questions raised. I am afraid there are many
speculations in Rishabh's article pertaining to who is deciding what
at IIIT-H, decision makers are spending time on less relevant things,
very few people are taking decisions, etc. I would not like to start
responding to specific speculations. Facts speak for themselves! That
is why, I had limited my reply to substantive issues only.
So we come to the question whether Jeevan Vidya is like a religion.
If you look at the 4 conditions in point (1) in my reply, they are
designed for openness of thought as well as being non-sectarian.
This does not match with the usual understanding of a common person
regarding religion. Jeevan Vidya was adopted because it satisfies these
conditions. IIIT-H is open to other ideas which satisfy the 4 conditions.
Therefore, people need not have apprehensions regarding Jeevan Vidya. I
am sure that IIIT-H will move towards greater dialog, as long as its
goal of providing serious education and doing research is shared by the
people engaging in the dialog.
IIIT-H is serious towards providing education (both in a discipline as
well as broad education). This is sometimes mistakenly attributed to JV.
But this is what education institutions are for!
This brings us to the question of education. Many undergraduate students
in India join engineering and IT (CSE and ECE) under peer pressure,solely for the sake of jobs, even when they are not interested in these areas. Such students unfortunately are bored with studies, and would like to do only those courses which are directly related to jobs. IIIT-H would like to extend a helping hand to such students in helping them
choose an area of their interest, subject to availability of expertise
and resources at IIIT-H.
I hope I have clarified some of the questions in your mind.
- Rajeev Sangal
16 January 2010
If only IIIT had this kind of involvement in generating original projects, promoting independent thinking and curiosity, getting funds and improving the standard of incoming students ... if only!
If only,
i) students help the faculty (by keeping them on their toes) in enriching the academic program,
ii) do all their class work with utmost seriously all by themselves
iii) strive for excellence by understanding the material taught in each and every class
iv) they do not look for all possible excuses to stay away from serious work and still complain they cannot finish their course in five years.
Dear Anonymous 'If Only'
1) STUDENT HELP FACULTY to stay on their toes ... is the faculty that lazy? (probably yes)
2) do their work with sincerity - right point - but has it ever struck to you why the sincerity level keeps going down for the same student over the years ... thats because the system (fueled obviously by frivolities like JV) slowly and steadily kills the engineer in him/her day by day
3)strive for excellence - by the material taught that is primitive, aided by facilities that are ancient, taught by professors who expect them to be robos and for end goals that are long lost in the quest of getting a degree for a change!
4)I doubt if you have spent enough time at IIIT to learn what the fate of research students is ... go do your homework before you bloat things in unchartered domains.
Whatever be the philosophy of Jeevan Vidhya, Why should we trust you people?
You have "betrayed" us once saying that this is a five year course.
If you can held an FSIS, assuring that every dual degree student who got a brochure which said this is a 5 year course, will get his/her degree in five years, we can feel that you are serious towards us.
Otherwise we just feel that institute needed research students to show large groups and then you tricked us into this.
"Please answer specifically to this".
Can this assurance be given, at least to those batches who were informed that this a 5 year course.
Otherwise there is no point in discussions, we simply can't trust you, can't trust what you all say.
@anand...
are you anand rathi? were you one of the students who was asked to spend few months in sidh?
@harsh: Thats me.
Dear 'Anonymous',
It does not really help in asking such a 'specific' question and expecting someone to reply, while you yourself remain 'anonymous'.
If you are really serious about getting the answer, go have a face-to-face debate with him. Even better start off by asking this question to your own adviser.
And try figure out yourself as to what steps you have taken to graduate in a strong/positive fashion.
Dear Maneesh,
The day I get my degree from this place, I will openly announce my name and will try to go to stage and publicly speak what all i say here.
This is just a matter of time. How do i trust you people, that once I reveal my identity my degree won't be further delayed just because one of my thesis reviewers are annoyed from me?
1. Al those who are taking more than five years should blame themselves for not pushing their advisers to getting them to help themselves to graduate in time. All those who have been regular in working have been to complete and graduate.
2. How many times a week have they met the adviser? How many times have they done the work assigned by the adviser well before deadline and asked for next piece of work?
3. How many time shave they taken effort to write quality highly presentable description of their to their adviser.
4. How many hours a week have they actually spent on working on their research problem?
I sincerely request all the students taking more than five years and have not submitted their thesis to answer above questions to themselves and realize where things might have gone wrong.
The institute cannot pass you if you do not clear your work. Work hard, deliver and graduate. There is no free lunch. You know what the requirements are, deliver them. Being among the best students from the country can't you do even this much.
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anand said...
JV is not compulsory ... we just make up reasons to rusticate students, and force them to attend it/promote it.
Anand
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Anand, what do you say - instead of giving you opportunity to continue your studies, you should have been thrown out of the institute. If that was done - you would not have the life you are having now.
@if only.
A lot of students may have the following to say
1. I would have completed my course in 5 years if only I didn't have to do 2 TA ships a sem to support myself.
2. I would have completed my course in 5 years if only my guide wasn't irresponsible enough to roam around all year long and leave IIIT in the end, without a trace.
3. I would have completed my course in 5 years if only the people reviewing my thesis actually had the competence to understand what was written in my thesis.
4. I would have completed my course in 5 years if only I didn't have to run around to arrange funding to go to conferences that IIIT should have payed for.
I can write many more "if only" statements but they are not constructive. Dual Degree is a revolutionary but complicated course. The fact that only 3 people (out of 66) graduated in the stipulated 5 years indicates a systemic problem. Indeed there are problems. Don't trivialize them with sanctimonious ramblings. You are being grossly disrespectful to a batch that has published almost a 100 research papers during their stay at IIIT.
And finally. I know Anand pretty well and can assure you that he would do just fine in life with or without IIIT. As much as it is a privilege for us to attend IIIT, it's as much of a privilege for IIIT to have us. You would do well to remember that.
Cheers.
I completely agree with Shark.
If you think it is a mistake on part of students, do send this statistics to future students in your brochure, only 3 people (out of 66) graduated in 5 years.
Lets see what response you get for your DD courses.
And do also send the placement statics of DD students, honest ones please, not the ones which you make magazine like Dataquest publish.
You may also send stats of ECE 3/30 placed. If you wish...
After all you people are ardent followers of Jeevan Vidhya.
Aren't you???
I don't know all this word jugglery which you all PhD holders from great universities of world know. The only thing i know is value of trust.
And just for sake of your information my parents taught it to me when I was young, very young.
Dear Anonymous 'If only'
I do thank IIIT for rusticating us(there were two more with me) once and allowing us to continue ... because that, more than anything ..that made us realize that we are worth much much more than that system was evaluating us to be. You would be happy (or sad) to learn that the other two are doing just fine too (one is in GS and other one in Google). More others in the so called 'notorious' group have also managed just fine (from IIMs,HEC Paris,Cisco and so on).
Now coming back to your point of what I'll do in life. My dear ignorant blogger, all that I ever took from IIIT was the learning outside the classroom. It came from friends, certain faculty members, incidents and yet certain other 'faculty members'. That to me is true education (note here the contrast with Prof. Sangal's view).
Finally, I understand why you would work under an anonymous shroud, but hey, do pass my congratulations to IIIT, they have successfully made yet another coward!
Best,
Anand
"If only" and other faculty members , doesn't your conscience ever calls you... You all are supposedly great human beings, having knowledge of this so called great philosophy jeevan vidhya.
Just imagine your children in our place, stuck in a degree, tricked by faculty, couldn't get a degree, utterly frustrated, n even after degree where is job?
Have you people ever had an honest conversation with any of your DD students, instead of just trying to find their faults?
Just ask one question from any of the IIIT'ans?
Will you be willing to put your sibling in DD or ECE course of this institute
Lets see how many of them say yes.
Lets have a frank opinion poll in IIIT Mag this time?
ShArK said...
@if only.
A lot of students may have the following to say
1. I would have completed my course in 5 years if only I didn't have to do 2 TA ships a sem to support myself.
---
That is part of the work. You are supported by the institute for the tuition, and you need to do something for livelihood. There is no free lunch. It is also not there for faculty. They have to slog to get funding for their students. That is part of doing research. Getting funding for doing research. You need about 20 hours of solid work per week for one year to do MS thesis. You can always extract 20 hours after all the TAships you are doing. The institute does not give you 100 hour TA job per week. This is just an excuse.
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2. I would have completed my course in 5 years if only my guide wasn't irresponsible enough to roam around all year long and leave IIIT in the end, without a trace.
--
It happens. I would be worried if all faculty members do this. What happens if one's adviser conked off, God bless!, things happen. At most few students would be affected by this not all of them.
--
3. I would have completed my course in 5 years if only the people reviewing my thesis actually had the competence to understand what was written in my thesis.
--
Only slackness in the system is time it takes for the committee to review. That is why I said you should have submitted your thesis by end of fifth year.
--
4. I would have completed my course in 5 years if only I didn't have to run around to arrange funding to go to conferences that IIIT should have payed for.
--
Getting conference papers is fine, going to them there is partial support from the institute. For most A+ conferences where full paper was accepted (not poster), I doubt if there was any lack of support. Now if five students and two faculty members write a paper, not everyone can be sent. I will be surprised if students are not sent to conferences in India where they had papers published.
--
I can write many more "if only" statements but they are not constructive. Dual Degree is a revolutionary but complicated course. The fact that only 3 people (out of 66) graduated in the stipulated 5 years indicates a systemic problem. Indeed there are problems. Don't trivialize them with sanctimonious ramblings. You are being grossly disrespectful to a batch that has published almost a 100 research papers during their stay at IIIT.
--
That shows that the DD is successful (100 papers - wow!), I am talking about graduation part, why could not - some one who has a research paper accepted not submit his/her thesis in time. Where are they wasting their time after getting their paper through, instead of writing their thesis and graduating.
--
And finally. I know Anand pretty well and can assure you that he would do just fine in life with or without IIIT. As much as it is a privilege for us to attend IIIT, it's as much of a privilege for IIIT to have us. You would do well to remember that.
--
That says a lot about you - who knows some one who has a passion to humiliate freshers when he is in his third year. And who still does not show gratitude to the institute for giving him a chance. If he could have done well anywhere in his life, he should have left IIIT then and there and charted a new way. Why did he not do it?
Of course it is a privilege for the institute to have Abhilash, Swati, Santosh, Supreeth Achar and many more students. All the students can emulate them. They are equally capable. So, where are they getting lost. Why is it one student is able to do it not other when they have almost same capabilities. I consider top 5000 students of AIEEE to be of same caliber.
BTW, why have you not graduated till now! You are as capable if not more than names listed above.
Your turn!
If ever I get married and my child gets high enough rank to get into IIIT, I will ask him/her to join DD. Work hard in the institute. Do proper time management. Enjoy. And that person will emulate Spreeth Achar and graduate in 5 years, unless he/she wants to stay back and do more.
There is enough quality time in the week for all students to succeed. So find out for yourselves what you have been really doing and where you are losing all the time.
Anand - thanks for thanking the institute. What ever you are learning from faculty members is part of education - life long education. It not not necessarily always in the classrooms. IIIT excels in providing such wholesome education. IIIT also gives slack to SLC to help students have their little fun knowing fully well how it happens. And your success (though your fetish might take longer to go away) is a testament. Whatever little introspection you did might have helped. But the society influences you otherwise. Do introspect. You will definitely need it soon!
Only reason for being anonymous - is not to bias the opinions expressed in the mind of the readers. Sometimes it is required.
Why not we end all this verbal talk here and have a poll with IIIT'ans
Will you be willing to put your sibling in DD or ECE course of this institute ?
This seems a very constructive solution to me.
And lets educate our juniors, only 3 people (out of 66) graduated in 5 years. We do have some responsibility towards our society. Don't we?
So next vacations lets all go to our coaching institutes and tell them just the facts. Plain facts, no opinions, let them form opinion, let them be judges.
@If Only
It's easy to say that you will put your child here. Just talk to one dual degree students. Have a face to face talk. Ask his opinion about faculty and dual degree course.
And remember this may be opinion your child may form about you. Out of a batch of 66 you have given 6 examples. Rest of 60 have the opinion which I am mentioning about!
@Anon (Saturday, January 16, 2010 10:38:00 PM)
Its not a question of 'trust' but of 'ethics'.
As a profession, I expect the reviewer to give a just feedback/comments on the thesis, irrespective of how much pissed he might be at someone.
Whatever it might be, at the end of the day the fact remains that provided one have a solid thesis (with/without publications), all that a reviewer can do is ask you 'some' questions. And am sure you are capable of answering questions pertaining to your work.
Rest aside, there's no point in being afraid of anyone. If you feel anything is going wrong, you should have guts of saying it then and there.
#define <> <>
It's very nice to see the response from Prof. Rajeev Sangal. I have a lot of respect for him. He has been very good in forming the policies and has a solid vision on what things should be in place for IIIT to be a unique and world class institute. This is majorly because of him and profs at IIIT that our institute has grown so far. Though I'm very critical on his ways of execution of his ideas.
Reading the responses of the people from this post and the previous post I think people can be categorized into 4 groups viz.
1. who thinks that JV should not be there at all no matter what it claims to be.
2. who thinks that JV should be there but are critical on how things go on in JV.
3. who thinks that JV should be there and they are doing it awright. These things must be forced.
4. whatever Prof. Sangal says is always right!!
I place myself in category 2. For reasons being that if such-a-thing is already in place and can not be removed because it contradicts the institute's vision, let it do the right way. Current way of doing is torture.
Let me narrate a conversation which I had with a prof in Yuktahaar who attended the JV shivir on the first day. He was here to find the suitability of this Shivir for his institute. He is the director I guess of that insti.
Prof: You two are from IIIT.
Me: Yes!
Prof: The food in this mess is spicy.
Me: Food isnt that spicy in this mess. Other messes would be dreadful for you, particularly gayatri mess.
Prof: In which progs are you in ?
Me:
Prof: I have come here to attend JV. I'm from #### college. Before this I was a vice-president in ##### company and even before that I was a prof in ####(one top insti in India).
Me: How your experiences have been so far ?
Prof: Today is my first day. I can not comment on it entirely. I have my own reservations.
Me: It was a second-ragging-experience for me in IIIT.
(Prof opens up now)
Prof: Even I did not like it what it is. The first thing that they told us to "not to take our views as such, decide on your own" (Prof. Sangal has stated this point too in his reply). But eventually the way they narrated things to us, I felt like they are imposing their own views on us. Even I think that JV kind of shivir is important for students but not this way. I think that I should attend it for few more days before concluding anything.
Me: Same was the reason that I did not like JV. It is like forcing someone's views onto others rather than opening a dialogue. All the time when dialogue starts there are interruptions with stupid thoughts which can not be/should not be absorbed at all.
Prof: Yeah true.
Me: Instead of attending JV I loved reading 'Lilavati' (this is by Bhaskaracharya and Lilavati is the name of his daughter). You get a glimpse of how mathematical thinking process has been at that time. You also get to know that even you can think on these lines too. JV is horrible. Once you are at the right path and have your own standings. They distracts. They take the soul out of a student.
Prof: I would be coming to this mess regularly, I would let you know my experiences after attending the complete shivir.
some_random_discussions ();
Prof: A student tend to good in courses which he is able to grasp easily. Even I noticed this in my institute, profs who are good have bright students following them. Probably people tend to take easy or interesting paths sometimes.
Me: Yeah true. And it is on to the professor to make his courses interesting to his students. For that a deep knowledge on how things evolved and how thinking process might have been is important. A good researcher(true researcher) tend to become a good teacher too.
some_random_discussions ();
<>
(cont from previous comment)
We never met again though because of mismatch in timings. But he, one who is not a student and a prof, was also of the same opinion that I had. If you believe that such a prog should be successful, then you would have to bring the right person in. In-fact, I found certain philosophy profs from univ of hyd to be more satisfying on these issues. I did develop a new way of thinking and self analysis because of them not because of JV.
What would be the difference between those parents, not mine, who force their students to go for IT courses and you if such a thing is imposed on us. JV take away the well developed thinking of some of the students. The program has been mediocre. I also saw the way the people who thinks that JV must be made compulsory. Their arguments have been bad and uncivilized. They are mute absorbers who are absorbing things without any thoughts. The very fact that they are not able to argue speaks a ton on what they got. Shouldnt they be sent to places like mussourie, so that they know themselves very well. This is a very good example that JV has been a failure, not the idea but the execution. Prof. Sangal reply is far more robust and satisfying.
JV for first years is like ragging because they have to absorb the stuff which they should not be absorbing. And this univ prof also tells that in JV thoughts are imposed onto students. For many people to follow what you have in your vision, the execution should be satisfying, motivating and purposeful.
@Prof. Sangal. If the stance of making JV compulsory in our insti is taken all faculty members, then why not all of them attend the shivir. There are some who do not come at all. I would like to see their resistance towards attending it when things are forced on them. I listened to the views of one of the prof of our insti who found this shivir to be useful. Hey bhagwan, unke views to poore hi galat ho gaye, hamara kya hoga. Woh yeh sochta hai ki uski priorities kya honi chaiye shivir attend karne ke baad, aur woh bhi galat. Bachao humein aise loge se.
PS: Kindly separate my response from DD stuff. Why that has been a failure is another issue to discuss. I believe that things can be completed in one year if lot many things are right.
Why am I anonymous ?
because I love being anonymous :D. I'm not afraid of direct arguments face to face. watever you call it to be.
@ if only
--------------------------
That says a lot about you - who knows some one who has a passion to humiliate freshers when he is in his third year. And who still does not show gratitude to the institute for giving him a chance. If he could have done well anywhere in his life, he should have left IIIT then and there and charted a new way. Why did he not do it?
-----------------------
Anand writes his name, I write my name and you write anonymously. That says *everything* about you.
It's one thing to write anonymously when commenting on an issue of policy or asking a question. But to write anonymously when making personal attacks (like you have done) lacks class. In fact this whole line of discussion is not the intended purpose of posting either my own views or Prof.Sangal's reply. It's people like you(present on both sides) who make a rational discussion impossible. Go fly a kite or something.
@Maneesh
Ethics
So you want to say that tricking us into DD is ethical??
If any one among all these wise man says that what they have done is ethical or moral I will straight away go to my primary moral science teacher and say what you said was all wrong.
1)They said that this is a 5 year course and they said there will be lot of opportunities in industry after this course : May I ask why wasn't it mentioned in brochure that to pass you need a publication ? What survey have they of industry before claiming of opportunities? Why don't they show current stats in brochure?
Ask this from current IIITans :
Will you be willing to put your sibling in DD or ECE course of this institute ?
Answers will make things crystal clear.
@anand...
dost, im sorry to have directly asked your name here. actually i was just a little surprised. when i met you people in sidh, and after that in delhi for ISF y impression was quite different. i thought, that you people appreciated being sent to sidh (and not being rusticated or heavily fined), and that the whole sidh experience was valuable. i admit that i made a wrong judgement....
i dont know if your implication in ragging case for right or wrong (i wasnt present there), but i have not seen any college take such a measure to counter ragging. usually they ignore it till it becomes too much. and then they take knee jerk descisions like heavy fine or rustication or lodging an FIR with the police etc. i still do not know if sending to sidh was the best response. but i was happy to see that there was some college which was thinking on other ways to curb ragging. i guess the easiest thing for an institute could have been to rusticate one student. uske baad generations tak koi ragging nahi hoti.
btw, now that you have passed out from here, and doing very well in life, were u actually involved in ragging?im sorry for being so direct here. you dont have to respond to it, if its uncomfortable in anyways.
@anand...
I hope our differences on the issue, and this comment baaji on a third person's blog will not come in between our relation. i have good memories of spending time with you people in sidh, ISF or even in IIIT (playing basketball together). Nothing personal here.
The following comment is not related to JV or DD. Just a general observation.
The general mistrust among students about the faculty in general is the root problem of any issue in our college. The general feeling is that faculty do not consult students while taking a decision. Why do faculty not consult students? because there is no proper representation from students. Now, yeah I can hear students who read this thinking "what! that microdemocracy blunder? thats not going to work its a waste of time." Well any system is as good as the people who are in it. Its the people who are the helm of our students parliament that are to be held accounted for any situation. The need of the hour is to strengthen student parliamentary system i.e find a robust method to elect our representatives. No No No. We wont do it because we have better things to do like a CS game to play or Seinfeld episode to watch than think about strengthening the system. Instead, when problem arises, we will sit back and read the blogs of people who are trying their level best to solve it and ramble in the comments section to have a flame war.
Even I want to see a JV-is-not compulsory campus, DDs having a much more transparent benchmarks to pass-out, average competence of faculty to go up and standard deviation of faculty's competence to go down. But this is not the means to achieve all those things. Besides not solving the problem, this only ruins the brand IIIT-H image for an outsider.
Faculty must realize they too require a proper systematic safety valve to let out their frustration on students. So, strengthening the student parliament is THE solution.
I appreciate Prof. Sangal's concern with the current form of education. The kind of steps this institute is taking to change the norm of "education" is fantastic. But I think it is in the execution that its going wrong.
==========================
Prof. Sangal: I would not like to start responding to specific speculations. Facts speak for themselves!
I would like to suggest a simple solution. Why not disclose all "the facts" and close this discussion once and for all? If they are available, can someone please tell us where they are. I am more than interested to read those "facts".. Alas! I could find only questions but not the solutions so far ..
============================
@If only: Dude .. you dont know under what circumstances was Supreeth able to graduate in 5 years !! ..
I would suggest you to read a recent article sent by Prof. PRK Rao. Its an interview with Donald Knuth (I guess you know this great man). Here is a snapshot of it..
-----------------------
Q: Do you think deep analysis of a problem or a solution to a problem is something that can be taught?
DK:
Yes I think it's possible to learn ‘by osmosis’ from a good researcher how to do research. But, like programming, that seems to be something that certain people can do much more naturally than others.
I don't believe that it's possible to take any person off the street and teach them to do deep research, or make them into an expert programmer, any more than it would be possible to teach me how to be a great football player, By any definition of ‘football.’
--------------------------
Well, if he says so, its a food for thought !! .. I think this is one of the fundamental problem with DD program.
Second, know what DD placement officer (Mr. Devi prasad) is doing to get the current out going DD batch "placed" .. You will definitely bash him for what he is doing. In simple terms, he is ruining the reputation of DD. Do you know that MSIT and MS by research are on the same level !! .. poor B.Techs for no fault of theirs ************* ...
I would like yourself to pose a simple question. Students must have worked to graduate in time !! I wonder why did not they do it !! .. What is the reason for that ? ..
Hey harsh!
Dude ... i totally loved the time I spent at SIDH. I have deep respect for Pavan Ji. But, I still have my grievances against the whole execution part (someone already threw light on it).
And yes, I was indeed involved in 'ragging'. Nothing physical, but yes, something that I don't feel good about looking in retrospect. If prof. Sangal would have just asked me to stay off for a sem or pay fine or something like that, it would still have been ok. But calling parents, literally humiliating them (and doing that to two others), playing cheap tricks like sending rustication letters and taking them back within an hours time ... stuff like that was plain disturbing.
Anyhow, while we had an awesome time at SIDH, things got worse when we came back to IIIT. I remember three of us being pushed like missionaries to 'spread the good word around'(something will prof. Sangal would deny, but I'm pretty sure thats not my biased feeling, lots of others felt the same way)
In conclusion, I have absolutely nothing against JV. But I feel that IIIT folks are grossly mistaken on their execution part. You cannot play moral police to a 20 year old, and the harder you try, the more things are gonna get out of your hands. Same holds for class room education.
I hope your thesis is going well.
Best,
Anand
I have heard a lot from my senior DD students abt Mr. Devi prasad and the way DD students are placed.
I sincerely expect a blog post throwing some light on this so that all of my batch DD know what are the facts?
And why not this word shall be spread aloud, spread aloud to outsiders? Why shall we not say plain facts when someone asks to us about joining this institute?
@anand .. its goin well :) .. I was not just focussing on JV and its execution man .. there are several instances ..
1. this is an instance in SELF-EVALUATION FORM available from the website ..
If you are research minded, these are the programs for you. After that you can decide whether to take up industry R & D or to do PhD.
How can a 12th class student evaluate himself w.r.t research? .. at that age, everyone believes they can do "research" ..
Are you willing to join in experiments of character development through self discovery and building of inner strength?
come on .. a class 12th student plainly goes with society norms at that age .. its a fundamental problem with education in this country !!
2. w.r.t student's parliament .. I raised this issue before Sreekanth and Varun long time ago .. they responded positively and sincerly when they were still members of the parliament .. but this issue died down eventually .. the institute must frame some strong ground rules .. that initial step must be taken .. otherwise .. its just another post for a MBA aspirant !!
3. The institute plainly says that it supports individual thinking and let people do what they like to do in life by letting them think .. I frankly dont see that in execution .. say, a student does not like engineering, "humanities" is the only other alternative !! .. MBAs, film making, art, etc are the words which must not be uttered in the institute !! ..
There are other instances as such which I do not want to disclose .. discussing them will only increase the mis-trust between both the parties ..
Prasant gopal, where are you !! .. all your blogs go in vain with the same discussion going on and on and on ....
Let us look at the situation - 6 students of DD graduated in time and 60 odd are left - yet to graduate.
What I find is that there is no such thing as cannot do for the studnets joining this institute. It is partly focus partly understanding and partly guidance.
The people who have graduated have
1. Were very focused on academics.
2. Given a choice of what to do for next half hour they analyzed, evaluated, and based on thier understanding of what needs to be done, they did it.
3. There is NO knee jerk reaction from them to get distracted any which way they can get.
The people who did this are the minority. They succeeded and had a plan and executed it. They were self-confident.
The studnets who could not -
1. Were of limited self-confidence to start with. They were doubting them selves and were seeing a mole hill as mount Everest.
2. They could cook up 1000's of excuses and get distracted, but had limited faith in themselves that the path they were taking is the right one.
3. Even when the institute provided them help and guidance (see Prasant Gopla's blog and responses on DD - work required - about 8 months back), they have not taken it.
4. It is partly that they do not concentrate on work at hand for the next half-hour, complete the work, convey to their adviser they are ready for the next step.
5. If students take it easy - faculty take it easier, they have so many other things to do.
This has happenned to majority of students. IIIT knew this, it expected this, and hence it made JV compulsory for all students.
Those who have seriously attended JV and all of it will realise -
a. It is important to have right understanding of what one needs to do. If that is not there one takes guidance from right people.
b. One ensures that one's desires are towards the goal we want to achieve, and that we need to be resposible to work towards this goal.
c. If others are not able to achieve the goal I guide them to achieve it.
d. If I am not able to achieve the goal, I introspect, and take guidance to achieve the goal.
e. Every hour I spend every day has to be driven by my right understanding and for mutual benefit.
f. If I am troubled, and I am not happy, I will wrongly attribute the reasons for it on wrong reasons (like I was not capable to do DD, or institute tricked me to it), and will get distracted enough not to work.
g. I shall have self-confidence and build self-confidence to deter all things that distract me, and work on those things that aid towards achieving my goal. If I seriously do this, I will not falter and will also be much more happier.
h. I shall think for my self what needs to be done to achieve my goals, I shall listen to others but I shall evaluate what I listen on my own and understand on the basis of universal truth (for example, If I do not know something and I need to work on it for my research now, do I study or watch a movie). We all know deep within ourselves what is the universally right thing to do, only the weak do the wrong thing, it requires courage to do the right thing. JV helps you to build that courage, all by yourselves for yourselves.
.. to be continued
JV was introduced to help this majority of students who are not able to feel slef-confident to acheive their goals. Instead of realising this the students have started feeling negatively towards it (because they did not attend it seriously, or joined the bandwagon of what others say), and even this solid help was negated.
If a student cannot spend one week of their entire life to take help and guidance so as to evaluate this help and guidance, and check to see if it helps build their self-confidence, and helps them achieve their goal, then who loses the institute or student. Both. The student definitely. The institute would not like to lose - it has the responsibility to provide universal education to the student. It cannot be irresponsible, that is not right, that is not universal truth. That is why JV is compulsory.
Hopefully students will give it a serious try and see for them selves how it helps them to achieve their goal. No other institute thinks and works this much to help the students to think independently, do the right thing, and work courageously and be self-confident. Give it a thought, and introspect on this on your own basis before reacting. Respond with deep thought on the issues at hand. Note the difference between reaction and response. Reaction is on the basis what is apparent, response is on the basis of understanding about all aspects of the issue.
@anand...
thanks anand. i value your response. things have become more clear to me now. i able to connect some dots...
thesis work is still far away. i happened to be in field(adilabad) for 4 months, which was a great experience.more on that later, as this is not the forum.
@Mr. Well wisher
This is a matter of fact that institute tricked us into it.
Given a choice majority of students would have left this course, and opted for some place elsewhere the first day they joined this place.
If you wish to claim otherwise just publish the stats in your brochure that 6/60 passed in time.
And then give whatever explanation you want to. Let's see how many people join this program.
Lets not get into this 'jugglery of words'. We aren't of any match to our faculty. Let's try this experiment once and see how many people join. What are their ranks?
It will be an interesting experiment. Won't it be?
@ well wisher.
This is not a problem limited to DD. I am not aware of any MS students (except 1 or 2) in the history of IIIT who have completed their course in stipulated time (2 years). And if indeed JV is the silver bullet, how come we don't see any change in in the MS students either ? Btw I am sure that there are some "researchers" who have nicely followed the path of JV. Care to comment on how they have fared ?
Your attempts to characterize all DD students as self doubting slackers, shows how little you know about the people, the program and the work done by students. I have the same thing to say to you as I did to another commenter - Go fly a kite or something.
The batch of 2005 is learning to do better.
Batch of 2006 is doing even better. From what all I know.
You know all those who have taken JV seriously, they seem to be doing fine.
The institute has provided the environment where in students have successfully completed their studies in normal time. Others who did not and who are here should introspect. That is, all I am saying.
There is no trickery!
Let me say few more points -
1. Students feel peer pressure, they compete on many things, but most of time they compete on number of movies watched, scores in computer games, just identifying reasons to take it easy, etc. This is true for good number of students.
2. They succumb to peer pressure of learning to humiliate others, smoking and drinking. Also true for good number of students, and some students accomplishment is to get others to do this (yup! SLC and Wardens are watching).
3. Why not take the same competition attitude, (you are all the most excellent students from all over India,) to excel in academics and finish your studies in five years, by guiding each other.
4. Only reason (3) IS NOT DONE (by many students) is because students are weak in mind, students desires are swayed by wrong things, STUDENTS DO NOT HAVE COURAGE to be strong and fight 1 and 2, and help each other to achieve 3.
Try to introspect and rethink all the time you spent here and what you did. You be truthful, and decide on what is naturally acceptable to you 1 & 2, or 3. above.
No, the institute did not trick you, YOUR WEAK MIND tricked you. The institute all the time WAS PROVIDING AMMUNITION TO YOU (JV) to become strong and courageous to do 3. You DID NOT TRUST THE INSTITUTE, and BLAMED the INSTITUTE's intention.
Wake up, you all, introspect, and do well from now onwards!
PS. Once the kite is flying very high - you get lot of time to introspect and still feel very happy looking at the kite :-).
Anon,
In this institute I do not think faculty really care about ranks of students joining the institute.
All faculty care is about right kind of students with right motivation and strong work ethic to join the institute. All it calls for 200 Supreets to join, instead of 200 weak minded students who cannot take the given guidance to become strong and courageous.
JV will be gone if majority of students start excelling in academics. They are obviously strong and committed.
So all those here tell your juniors in the schools, and other places from where you come from about expectations in this institute so that only the strong and courageous will join.
@well wisher:
What all you are saying , you can say this to us, because our degree is in your hands.
If you have courage, if you feel you are right, do tell stats to prospective students and do give these arguments to them and then lets see how many top students join you.
We are into this and we will get out of this place some way or other, but this pain, the way we were tricked and the way faculty behaved, we won't forget. This will we one of a kind institute in India whose alumnus will have such feelings.
@well wisher:
The brochure of this institute was sent to top 2500 ranking students of AIEEE in 2007. And you say faculty doesn't care about ranks!
What had been done to our batch has been done. At-least give juniors an option to convert to four year course.
An this is a very sincere,very humble request.
Please don't give arguments in against it. You may win in arguments but even you know what you have done is entirely unethical.
@ well wisher
Looks like we found our first Jeevan Vidya extremist :)
I look forward to your next pearls of wisdom.
Cheers.
Anon,
Sorry, but you do not understand - the institute does not care about top ranked students joining.
All the institute wants are students who are strong and courageous to spend their time to excel in academics that is fine.
This will save the institute and faculty time in making weak-minded students such as DD students in sixth year - strong.
So your point about top students joining or not is a 'don't care'!
You may not understand this (why the institute is doing something) now, but over time you will!
Anon,
Again wrong understanding-
Your degree is in your hand - become strong and courageous work hard and graduate. (PJN once said I do not give you marks, you get the marks based on your answers).
I have not seen the institute not giving a degree to a deserving student. As someone said - there is no free lunch!
Go introspect! and seek guidance to achieve your goals.
Shark! -
I am poor little Dolphin in the sea who understands and is strong and courageous :-) to tackle a shark :-) Ever hoping that Shark will gain some wisdom and write an article on 'Qualities and Work Ethics of Strong and Courageous DD Students'
@Shark:
Absolutely true. He is a Jeevan Vidhya extremist. According to this cult all of us are fools. We don't understand things. We need to be made strong. And so we must do Jeevan Vidhya. And we will only understand things with times.
Someone please make him understand 1) that people not caring about ranks don't send their brochure to top 2500 students.
2) More importantly they don't put fabricated things in brouchre.
3) They don't ask IIT JEE ranks of students on very first day.
All hail to this stalwart of JV cult!!
I bow...
At-least give juniors an option to convert to four year course.
Humble request. Do consider this.
@well wisher and @anon
You guys.... get a room and sort it out. May the best badger win.
stop spamming my blog !!!
Anon,
Another escapist attitude, label a person and be done with it. Once you label a person, you need not listen to them, you can omit all the wisdom that comes from that person. However universally true that is.
You have not tried understanding what was said till now. This is exactly what a weak mind would do. You are the living proof of it.
Kindly get some advise and guidance, and start working. Again respond, do not react. Get help!, I will send you flowers :-) with guidance, if I know who you are.
Shark!
Now, I hope you will understand why you should really understand and gain wisdom before posting. If you post your half-baked ideas - well this kind of discussion will happen on your blog.
Take care!
@Well wisher
Thanks for all the clarifications provided.
@Anon
Thanks for showing your lack of understanding for well-wisher to clarify things.
@Shark
Thanks for hosting this discussion on your blog.
@all readers -
Introspect and make your own judgments and try to figure out the universal truth. I do not know about you all but I got to understand lot more than before.
Ciao!
@Well Wisher & If-only
Why do you think what you think is wisdom and what others think is half-baked? Isn't this bigotry
Anonymous said...
@Well Wisher & If-only
Why do you think what you think is wisdom and what others think is half-baked? Isn't this bigotry
===
Elementary Mr.Watson
You know the universal truth - what needs to be done by you to achieve your goals. Now many are not able to do it. What could be the true reason. Use your own introspection and understand. You will be able to answer this question yourselves.
You are very much capable of doing it - do it.
@if-only @Well-wisher
I want to label you extremist and be done with it. I want to vomit all the hatred and its universally true.
Because you have not tried to understand how much hated this thing is. Something an extremist will do. You are living proof of it.
Kindly get some advise and guidance, and stop this obsession. Again respond, do not react. Get help!, I will send you flowers :-) with guidance, if I know who you are.
@Authorities
I have honestly never been on JV shivirs. I have no idea what it's content is, I was curious once and one day Pranav was explaining me, but I got distracted by my work and could never continue the discussion.
What I would like to notify the authorities is that, you have consistently failed to understand one of the biggest reason people hate it, is because it is forced upon them. Young minds don't like things forced upon. May be the course is good, I would like to believe that, but my mind automatically gets raged and angry when its forced upon me and I spontaneously hate it.
Have you considered making it optional? I bet JV will gain more popularity (instead of notoriety) if it is made optional. May be it is genuinely good, but you have just put a label of disgust on it by making it compulsory.
Few will like it, Good for them. Some will comply, these are essentially weak and hopeless whose confidence is thrashed even more by you. But the mass, who did not liked it, are left with rage, frustration and anger which they will vent on the outside world when they go out, It is actually a very very sad thing which you are doing.
You pretty much understand that I have not mentioned anything why JV is a bad thing. I am only saying its compulsion is bad.
the previous post also explains why people don't like DD and research.
But as faculty explained you have to do it as you have chosen a DD course here.
It was your fault if you were not able to find out that this is not a five year course.
Now you have chosen it, do it. Pretty Simple!
It is such a shame that we the most excellent students from India, and we cannot understand and proceed with what is good for them, even when it is shown why something is important to us.
We depend on half knowledge of others, submit ourselves to peer pressure, and come up with innumerable excuses to not do the thing we have come here to do. That is, academics.
Any one who says - do not make something compulsory, should first understand what is universal education. And why it is important. Without that understanding we have no right to discuss why something is compulsory. In all the arguments against making JV compulsory I have not seen any of that understanding, including the casual chat with the Prof. reproduced.
We students should not and must not look for excuses, after committing ourselves for a program. We should not ask to be excused from it. It is not that we cannot do it, we should overcome our weakness in mind and successfully do it.
As a DD student we ought to be extremely committed to our studies and work on it. And we should not get distracted with all the other issues. Let us all emulate Supreet!
We should have guts to show to the institute that we can complete the DD program within five years by working hard and by taking appropriate guidance. Let us not chicken out!
@if only
You coward, how dare you threaten to throw a student out of the institute ? And after this, you expect us not to be anonymous.
You grill anand for ragging freshers .. what the institute is doing for with the ECE students is 'rape' .. a mental one. Let me be concrete and not ramble off
1. An FSIS was held at the end of last semester to highlight the plight of the EC program. At the end of the session, Dean Academics, Dean R & D and HOD EC were asked to send a point by point reply to a pdf prepared by the students highlighting their concerns. They promised to do so. They have been dropped several reminders. Yet there is no reply ... If they do not have that much time as to reply to the grievances of the students, how can we expect them to raise the rotting standards of this branch ......
2. The first gold medalist of the EC program could not answer interview questions and failed to get a job .... The EC HOD says that if he is good enought to do a Phd he is good enough for a job .... Why don't you people understand that there is a difference betwwen job and research. You do not want guys looking for jobs to come to IIIT-H ... Why do you mention your placement statistics in the brochure ... Why do you participate in placement rankings by magaznies ... withdraw for them and then if somebody comes looking for a job here ... he is to blame for his own fate
3. Speaking of placements, the EC batch of 30 this year has had 3 placements so far ... When a meeting was conducted with the faculty, they told the students to prepare a brochure highlighting the program and thay they would forward it to their contacts .......... Is that professional ? All this brochure stuff should be done by the institue by hiring professionals and attracting companies by personally going to meet them ........ Youyr studenst are jobless .. yet you are more than happy to force JV on them
4. Coming to JV ....... Why do you make it compulsory ? Is it because you deem us unfit to see what is right and wrong in life ? Who gave you the power to do that ...... Guide us do not thrust things on us.
@WELL-WISHER
"The institute would not like to lose - it has the responsibility to provide universal education to the student. It cannot be irresponsible, that is not right, that is not universal truth. That is why JV is compulsory."
This shows that JV has become a question of ego for you ... you do not want to admit that not everyone likes JV .. so you decide to moral police us ..... leave our decisions and maturity to us .... just teach us what we wish to learn and not what you wish us to learn
This blog post has become a youtube video and all the comments appear to be same as youtube comments, where nothing can be changed howsoever you bark. After reading the response of well-wisher I think that people are justified to bark in this manner. I do have a lot of respect for well-wisher too. I love his teaching methodology(I hope that he is the same prof who comments on various critical blog posts). He did make some very good and very bad decisions for academics. On one hand he has a high tendency to generalize things and on the other hand he leave no stone unturn to contain all the possible scenarios. If you are indeed in such a situation, do what Gautam Buddha said, take the middle path.
You have squarely put the blame on the DD students for not completing the DD course in time. The reason you cite is that they do not attend JV properly. Nothing could be more hilarious than this line of argument. We have got people conducting JV shivir who themselves have very little command over what they are preaching to people.
In-fact, in one of the shivir, Prof. Kaul happened to be there. For every argument the narrator(ya, I call him narrator) produced, Prof. Kaul could come up with a better argument. His arguments were very convincing and looked final. Prof. Sangal was there too, you can ask him. Here is one of the conversation:
-----------------
Narrator: Why do you think this place[guest house, where we all were] is safe for you ?
Many People: it's pavitra, it's inside institute, people are good and blah blah blah. (let me repeat it here again, these were random comments by JV maniacs in insti)
Narrator: Extended the arguments what people said + some views of his own (I do not rmr exactly).
Prof Kaul: No matter from where you have come from(this was the exact line), I do not agree with what you say. This place is safe for us because we have not seen any violent incident/massacare happening here before. It is based on the past experiences rather than anything else. If such a thing had happened here people would not felt this place to be secure.
------------------
Note, I do have a lot of respect for the narrator too. He took a lot of pain to convey what he thinks would be useful(direction where people should think) to people and he also has to bear such comments (e.g. comments on this blog). BUT, there are many things which are going wrong. Instead of helping people out to develop a solid thinking process, you are handing them your own thoughts with a tag that decide/think on your own. People are not mature enough, and if you have immature thoughts, this is going to be a disaster. DID U GET IT ? IF NOT READ WHAT I WROTE ABOVE THOUSAND TIMES.
(continued from previous comment)
As far as DD is concerned, it is taking time because:
+ All profs have different standards for their students to graduate.
+ A single prof has different standards towards his students. One may get early, if he has an admission/job pending somewhere and would be delayed if a prof sees a lot of potential in terms of number of papers from him.
+ People are not mature enough to do the research. Maturity should be acquired from the professor himself. Prof has to help him out if he is not. This does NOT happen. Even some profs are not mature enough to do research. Some of the profs thinks that his research status is directly proportional to number of publications coming out of his students. Some of the profs don't think at all.
+ Aspirations does not match (e.g. should outcome be paper, mathematics, philosophy or vision). If aspirations of both the prof and students matches, it's best for both of them. The worst thing with DD student is that they themselves do not know that they have to find a prof with similar aspirations. In-fact, most of the people who go out of IIIT for PhD drops out of the program because they end up thinking that there are better things in life. Why ? Trust me JV does not help here. I could not find anything useful from them.
+ Most profs have short term agendas of their own research or their agendas are from stone age. People who come here for a job(passout from some top US univs) of prof do not have any research agenda of their own. What do you expect from (forced)people of DD ?
+ The director of ###### company comes to IIIT and convey to students that he went on to do his PhD because he did not find any value in his job which he got after completing his MS, US. EEEEEEEEEEEEEEE. You do not do research because you felt bored with another thing. You do research because you are deeply interested in something. He did a significant damage here. People thinks I am not feeling bored, then why should I. JV can not help people to overcome such circumstances, I bet you would end up MISGUIDING people.
+ Reviews takes good amount of time for some.
+ A prof should manage his student to the level that he should be able to exclusively able to concentrate on his own research. This does not happen. Managing his student also includes taking all his worries onto himself, providing him a comfortable company. A prof can really do this. That's all he has to do.
+ Student should be able to love what he does. If he is not, things are waste.
+ and of course some are not serious.
+ rather than making his student motivated(for forcefully converted junta :D) he finds faults in his students. How would you present your research to be interesting when you yourself are not that much interested.
I love the Prof. Kamal's view that people should do their work properly irrespective of making their work it to a big conference. Top conferences does not accept all kind of papers. They accept papers which meet their objectives.
Hopefully, my response is not just another Youtube comment.
Read it somewhere
"Freedom from fear is the freedom"
You have squarely put the blame on the DD students for not completing the DD course in time. The reason you cite is that they do not attend JV properly. Nothing could be more hilarious than this line of argument. We have got people conducting JV shivir who themselves have very little command over what they are preaching to people.
--
Two things:
1. Ability of DD studnet to be committed to their research and work and make steady progress.
2. If they are not able to do 1. then why.
All I was saying was that JV helps you to realsize and set your priorities at micro level and also at macro level to do 1. Students have chosen otherways to do 1., but if they cannot find ways to do 1, JV helps.
--
In-fact, in one of the shivir, Prof. Kaul happened to be there. For every argument the narrator(ya, I call him narrator) produced, Prof. Kaul could come up with a better argument. His arguments were very convincing and looked final. Prof. Sangal was there too, you can ask him. Here is one of the conversation:
-----------------
Narrator: Why do you think this place[guest house, where we all were] is safe for you ?
Many People: it's pavitra, it's inside institute, people are good and blah blah blah. (let me repeat it here again, these were random comments by JV maniacs in insti)
Narrator: Extended the arguments what people said + some views of his own (I do not rmr exactly).
Prof Kaul: No matter from where you have come from(this was the exact line), I do not agree with what you say. This place is safe for us because we have not seen any violent incident/massacare happening here before. It is based on the past experiences rather than anything else. If such a thing had happened here people would not felt this place to be secure.
------------------
Note, I do have a lot of respect for the narrator too. He took a lot of pain to convey what he thinks would be useful(direction where people should think) to people and he also has to bear such comments (e.g. comments on this blog). BUT, there are many things which are going wrong. Instead of helping people out to develop a solid thinking process, you are handing them your own thoughts with a tag that decide/think on your own. People are not mature enough, and if you have immature thoughts, this is going to be a disaster. DID U GET IT ? IF NOT READ WHAT I WROTE ABOVE THOUSAND TIMES.
----
I think you misunderstood what was conveyed - in this world ther eis inherent trust, if there is no trust you cannot even do whatever you want to do. You are happy and safe where you are because no one is going to hurt you. That is, mutual trust. It is most predominent among human beings, if there was no such trust our life would be lot more difficult. The guest house room was symbol of the world, and every day things that happen in the world. If you do not inherently trust the person sitting next you to not harm you, you will fear sitting next to him.
---
to be continued..
IIIT meri Jaan said...
(continued from previous comment)
As far as DD is concerned, it is taking time because:
+ All profs have different standards for their students to graduate.
--
but the universal truth is that you work 20hrs/week on a problem showing progress to your advisor you will complete.
--
+ A single prof has different standards towards his students. One may get early, if he has an admission/job pending somewhere and would be delayed if a prof sees a lot of potential in terms of number of papers from him.
--
JV helps you to understand what the intention of the Prof. is , and helps you to convey to Prof. what your desires are and work it out. There is always a way out as long as you do not question the intention of both Prof. and student (that they both want to mutually help each other).
--
+ People are not mature enough to do the research. Maturity should be acquired from the professor himself. Prof has to help him out if he is not. This does NOT happen. Even some profs are not mature enough to do research. Some of the profs thinks that his research status is directly proportional to number of publications coming out of his students. Some of the profs don't think at all.
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That is why, start working seriously on a problem for 20 hours a week. All reserach is not ground breaking, all reserach is not innovative, most reserach is understanding what has bene done, and developing it further. It is slightly more involved than questions in open book exams (like Prof. Kamal's questions).
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+ Aspirations does not match (e.g. should outcome be paper, mathematics, philosophy or vision). If aspirations of both the prof and students matches, it's best for both of them. The worst thing with DD student is that they themselves do not know that they have to find a prof with similar aspirations. In-fact, most of the people who go out of IIIT for PhD drops out of the program because they end up thinking that there are better things in life. Why ? Trust me JV does not help here. I could not find anything useful from them.
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Why should you feel that Prof. will not listen to you? No prof. wants a student who does something the student inherently does not like. You should not fear the Prof. tell him what kind of work you lik eto do, and ask him why he thinks you can do the work you do not like to do, and discuss it over till you get some conclusion. Do not run away from discussion.JV provides you the strength to have this discussion without fear of repercussion.
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+ Most profs have short term agendas of their own research or their agendas are from stone age. People who come here for a job(passout from some top US univs) of prof do not have any research agenda of their own. What do you expect from (forced)people of DD ?
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A prof. has taken a DD student, he must have a problem at hand, you can strt working on it, if you want to do something different you learn that show to Prof. why it interests you, and seek guidance from Prof. on aspects he can help, and from other Prof's on aspects they can help. JV gives you confidence to embark on your own and decide for yoursleves you can do it.
--
to be continued..
+ The director of ###### company comes to IIIT and convey to students that he went on to do his PhD because he did not find any value in his job which he got after completing his MS, US. EEEEEEEEEEEEEEE. You do not do research because you felt bored with another thing. You do research because you are deeply interested in something. He did a significant damage here. People thinks I am not feeling bored, then why should I. JV can not help people to overcome such circumstances, I bet you would end up MISGUIDING people.
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Reserach is not such a difficult thing - there are variations in research, depending on your capabilities, you can do right level of research. It is a solid training for problem solving on unseen kind (unseen till then issues). It is not black magic. With sytematic study and work ethic you can do it. You cna become Dravid like with sheer practice. Sehwag comes only once in life time. There have been many researchers who are Dravid's, just by sheer hardwork. JV helps you to sustain that hardwork.
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+ Reviews takes good amount of time for some.
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True. that is being worked on by PJN, check with him.
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+ A prof should manage his student to the level that he should be able to exclusively able to concentrate on his own research. This does not happen. Managing his student also includes taking all his worries onto himself, providing him a comfortable company. A prof can really do this. That's all he has to do.
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If student comes to Prof. with what worries he has, I am sure Prof. will help him out. If student keeps worries to himself Prof. will feel every thing is fine. JV helps student to communicate with Prof. his worries and seek guidance. Prof. is not God, he cannot see what is in student's mind.
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+ Student should be able to love what he does. If he is not, things are waste.
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Hardwork is what student should love. remember Computer Programming course in firts semester, you hated it, but then second semester you loved it. Samething with reserach - you put the hard work, and then see. Samething with JV, no different. Only thing different is that there is no CP Prof. and his team driving you to do the hard work. you need to work hard on your own and get motivated to do that hard work. JV helps you to do this.
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+ and of course some are not serious.
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JV really helps them.
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+ rather than making his student motivated(for forcefully converted junta :D) he finds faults in his students. How would you present your research to be interesting when you yourself are not that much interested.
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Answered im many points above.
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I love the Prof. Kamal's view that people should do their work properly irrespective of making their work it to a big conference. Top conferences does not accept all kind of papers. They accept papers which meet their objectives.
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Poor Prof. he does not care about glory of getting papers in. But his students should be prepared for extra work if committee evaluating thesis seeks it.
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Hopefully, my response is not just another Youtube comment.
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@well-wisher
JV is not the answer to all the problems in life ......... why are you such an extremist ?
http://www.educationmaster.org/news/list-44-de-recognized-deemed-universities.html
The reason for derecognizing them is given at the bottom. May be this news needs to be taken note of in context of a course like JV.
Anonymous said...
@well-wisher
JV is not the answer to all the problems in life ......... why
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Try it an see for your selves. Do not make a statement without trying.
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are you such an extremist ?
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If you have any reasonable comment other than labeling people - let us know.
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Tuesday, January 19, 2010 10:26:00 AM
Pranav said...
http://www.educationmaster.org/news/list-44-de-recognized-deemed-universities.html
The reason for derecognizing them is given at the bottom. May be this news needs to be taken note of in context of a course like JV.
--------------
1. Undesirable management structure where families rather than professional academics controlled the functioning
- not applicable
2. Several institutions had violated the principles and guidelines prescribing excellence in teaching and research and were engaged in introduction of thoughtless programmes
- not applicable
3. Little evidence of noticeable efforts in case of emerging areas of knowledge
- not applicable
4. Little evidence of commitment towards research
- not applicable
5. Institutions increased their intake capacity disproportionately
- not applicable
6. Undergraduate and post-graduate courses were fragmented with concocted nomenclatures
- not applicable
7. Higher fee structure than prescribed
- not applicable
@well wisher
Try it an see for your selves. Do not make a statement without trying.
-------------------------------------
I have attended the complete JV shivir in my first year ........ Forn=m there I can say that JV is not the solution to all of an individual's problems .... Yes it does teach good things ... I am not against JV per se But I need you to see that forcing something on ppl takes away the beauty of it .... and the institute is focusing a tad too much on JV ... as I said in a prev comment but you have not bothered to reply ... What abt the plight of the EC placements ? I have put several concrete examples in that comment ... Care to reply You are conviniently replying to only those comments where you can find good counter arguements .... Come on talk abt the EC issue ... do they not deserve attention ,.... And can JV help EC ppl in getting placements ?
----------------------------------
If you have any reasonable comment other than labeling people - let us know. -----------------------------------
For your ease, I am once again raising some questions ,.... lets see whether you care to reply or not
1. An FSIS was held at the end of last semester to highlight the plight of the EC program. At the end of the session, Dean Academics, Dean R & D and HOD EC were asked to send a point by point reply to a pdf prepared by the students highlighting their concerns. They promised to do so. They have been dropped several reminders. Yet there is no reply ... If they do not have that much time as to reply to the grievances of the students, how can we expect them to raise the rotting standards of this branch ......
2. The first gold medalist of the EC program could not answer interview questions and failed to get a job .... Is that not a matter of concern ? The EC HOD says that if he is good enought to do a Phd he is good enough for a job .... Why don't you people understand that there is a difference betwwen job and research. You do not want guys looking for jobs to come to IIIT-H ... Why do you mention your placement statistics in the brochure ... Why do you participate in placement rankings by magaznies ... withdraw for them and then if somebody comes looking for a job here ... he is to blame for his own fate
3. Speaking of placements, the EC batch of 30 this year has had 3 placements so far ... When a meeting was conducted with the faculty, they told the students to prepare a brochure highlighting the program and thay they would forward it to their contacts .......... Is that professional ? All this brochure stuff should be done by the institue by hiring professionals and attracting companies by personally going to meet them ........ Youyr studenst are jobless .. yet you are more than happy to force JV on them
4. Coming to JV ....... Why do you make it compulsory ? Is it because you deem us unfit to see what is right and wrong in life ? Who gave you the power to do that ...... Guide us do not thrust things on us.
Once again .... my problem is the over emphasis on JV as a magic solution to all problems in life and neglect of other branches by the institute
Answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe, and Everything is Jeevan Vidya
/s
See above for detailed questions ....
@well wisher
Try it an see for your selves. Do not make a statement without trying.
-------------------------------------
I have attended the complete JV shivir in my first year ........ Forn=m there I can say that JV is not the solution
****
I though that there was a SFIS on this. From what I know from ECE student placement about few hundred companies are
invited for RnD showcase (may be twenty of odd companies will come). Recently, two companies have recruited 5 from
ECE. There has been attention being paid, and results will take time in coming. The cordial manner in which
students and institute discussed different aspects of the problem and came up with a combined strategy - may be due
to understanding of each other's limitations, and relationships the isntitute has with its members.
****
For your ease, I am once again raising some questions ,.... lets see whether you care to reply or not
1. An FSIS was held at the end of last semester to highlight the plight of the EC program.
****
The issues I believe were discussed at length, and key issue was faculty recruitment, now that is going in full
swing. Second, was opportunities to do research, there was a metting will all dual degree ECE students wherein
institute spelled out all different possibilities of research a dual degree student can take. The institute
prioritized the issues and is tackling them. Report can come, but action I believe is call of the day.
****
2. The first gold medalist of the EC program could not answer interview questions and failed to get a job .... Is
that not a matter of concern ?
****
IIIT ECE is different from other ECE programs, thus there is a mismatch bettern what company expects and what
student knows. This can happen to any student and any institute. Now the institute is educating the companies about
differences in ECE program of IIIT with others. I believe the only reason the institute puts placement statistics
is because of number of calls to admin and faculty asking for it at admission time (told by institute at some other occasion). Admin were innundated with
these calls to do other work. Given a choice the institute would not put them. It is the society that is forcing
the institute to put up placement information.
****
3. Speaking of placements, the EC batch of 30 this year has had 3 placements so far ...
****
Two aspects to brochure - (i) content for which faculty can help, and (ii) presentation that is what studnets can
do. The institute has tried external people to prepare brochures but it was double the work. In order to speed it
up the institute uses its own resources and those resources who are on top of things and have most understanding of
what needs to be done. The best people. The placement team, with faculty guidance and inputs.
****
... to be continued
4. Coming to JV ....... Why do you make it compulsory ?
****
If you see above questions, the amount of understanding a student shows is limited, in order to consider all
aspects of problem, and best way to tackle a problem JV helps. Most of the problems can be solved by mutual
cooperation, and JV helps in ensuring that. Finally when you lack confidence, and are ready to look towards blaming
many things, JV helps you to see things clearly so that you can concntrate most on what you need to do, do your
courses well, and do well in placements (assuming you are UG4 student).
****
Once again .... my problem is the over emphasis on JV as a magic solution to all problems in life and neglect of
other branches by the institute
****
I am not sure whether it is magic or not, but it sure has ingredients to address the problems by understanding the
real source of problems and tackling it with effectiveness.
As a student member of the institute I can only grasp so much of what is happening by attending FSIS/SFIS, and speaking to institute members over few years. I suggest you to spend time
understanding the issues and what is happening by your own without relying on heresay. The institute as far as I know will be most unhappy if any of its programs is neglected. They will not let it happen (ups and downs will be there).
Take care and good luck.
****
@well-wisher
Well, as much as I hate to admit it, your comments have made me realize that maybe I am looking at things in life from a very limited point of view and that maybe I am putting too much blame on others ....
I still have my differences in opinion with the college on how it makes JV compulsory and the neglect of EC branch and other things I mentioned previously, but your comments have made me realize that if I keep on blaming others, I might lose the ability to find a solution to my problems in life ...... you have definitely given me a new perspective to think along .....
Will definitely try to see where this takes me ....... guess a thank you is in order
@ well wisher (on explanation of point 3)
"Given a choice the institute would not put them. It is the society that is forcing the institute to put up placement information."
If I am not wrong, according to JV, you should do what you think is right, without bothering that what others think. You should not do anything because of the peer pressure (a/c to JV).
I think you yourself are not following what you are teaching to others.
Please reply precisely on this comment.
@ug2k6 student:
Hey this is simple. Had they not shown you all those lucrative placement figures, would you have joined here? Would you have joined this place to do research?
And had they not written that line in brochure: "The programme takes one extra year, but then you get two degrees BTech and Masters. Normally, MTech requires two years beyond BTech." Would you have joined?
Marketing lessons. To progress in life you will need them all. See how precisely this institute prepares you for life. After all they are trend settlers.
In one of the previous posts shark says that institute lacks courses in humanities.
But one thing for sure, the institute gives you best marketing and sales lessons in the world!
They are simply the best.
@ well wisher:
If you really think that JV is solution for everything or gives direction to the solution, use that weapon and try to give the explanations of above comments.
Waiting for your reply.
@all
I keep wondering how many of those who are discussing about on how things should be run and on the way they are run at IIIT is good or bad blah blah blah... have any competence (AFAIK only a few student/professional years; except ofcourse Prof Sangal) of being judgemental about all this...
That does not mean one should not be putting forward their view point... little more openness to other's view may help little more ...
u've been tagged .... !!
https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-limitations-of-Jeevan-Vidya-Madhyasth-Darshan-Philosophy/
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