For a long long time I have thought about writing this post. I refrained from writing it because I was not sure about my competence to comment on a philosophy so many "educated" people have subscribed to. After attending a Shivir (over the course of 2 years!!) and taking a course that was for all practical purposes JV - 101 (Understanding Work and Life), I think I have some background to make certain observations about JV and it's tryst with IIIT.
The Philosophy itself : Having read a bit about JV, I can say that JV as a whole is pretty much oriented like any other religion is. Do good, be good, be in harmony with nature, surroundings, control your desires and so on. Since the philosophy has roots in a modern society, there seems to be a trend to rationalize every argument presented as part of the philosophy. The validity and thoroughness of these rationalizations is a debate better left to theologians rather than MSbR students :). There is also no component of JV that prescribes rituals or anything of that sort. In it's simplest form, the message of JV is pretty elegant and I couldn't not help appreciating it. If I was an alien visiting earth I could very well believe that JV was yet another among the various religions practiced on earth with a decent following.
Which is where my problem with JV's association with IIIT begins. Today, if the powers that be at IIIT were prescribing to interpretation of a Hindu or Islamic or Christian ideology the same way they seem to be enamored by JV, there would have been an uproar of epic proportions. Since JV doesn't quite have the status of a proper religion like say Hinduism or Islam, people just don't know how to give a name to whats going on. I don't think you can talk about Human values and spirituality without imprinting on the listener, a certain version of your own religious beliefs. Now, no matter what Prof.Sangal or anybody else says, I do consider all JV activities to be religious. Which is in itself not bad. But only provided you do not provide official patronage and pamper only JV. I don't see any Hindu Shivirs or Islamic Halaqas being arranged on campus. Do you ?
One of the reasons the Muslim League argued for a separate Islamic state was that, "Islam and it's tenets extend to every aspect of life, whether it is social discourse or even business. There is no activity that is not religious by nature. A separate Islamic state that understands this notion is required to safeguard the Islamic way of life". While I don't fully agree with this statement I can understand the sentiment. A close look at our lives would tell us that our religion shapes almost all aspects of our decision making in some way or the other. It would then come as no surprise that the philosophies of JV made their way into the decision making process at IIIT. A number of changes in the campus over the last 5 years, can be attributed to a JV or JV-ish justification from the decision makers. As time progresses, JV is firmly embedded in the psyche of a lot of influential people at IIIT. What is the result you ask ? Well in it's simplest form, I am forced to study a course on Literature from Vinish Gupta (as learned as he may be). I would rather take my chances with Prof.Sudhakar Marathe who is conspicuous by his absence. The fact that half the Humanities courses are offered by people strongly associated with JV or even officially associated with it, is troubling. I have already written about this.
But there is more. I see a more orthodox IIIT. I see JV inspired people complaining about girls in skimpy outfits in felicity. I see "Swayamsevak" committees popping up and I see faculty members making sure that they don't miss a single session of JV, all while MS student's can't get placed, IIIT is short of funds, ECE is a mess and we have a new main building reminiscent of a WW2 ruin. I see certain civil engineers have a greater say about the way IIIT is run, than the experienced pioneers of science that grace our campus. I see dance teachers being paid more than the people who help maintain the IT in IIIT. I see a lot of people not being valued for sharing different beliefs. I see a systematic removal of people with non-JV or anti-JV views from the seats of power in IIIT. It's almost like JV-ists are the new communists !
Where there is a religion there are fanatics. A few months ago I was reading Osama bin Laden's biography (by Adam Robinson). The book provides a detailed description of how Osama, fed up with his life, saw redemption in Islam and Jihaad and how he rallied thousands from different nations, from Kings to commoners and from the educated to the illiterate to form Al-Qaeda. The parallels I see with JV in IIIT and the people concerned are amazing. Both started out as small movements. Al-Qaeda had Afghanistan-1989 and JV had this. Boosted by their initial success and the charisma of their leaders the groups snowballed into fanatical movements, convinced about their interpretation of a religion, each wreaking their own version of a catastrophe on the world they interact with. Hell, we even have our own Osama bin Laden and Zwahiri, with a dollop of young impressionable lieutenants. Both believe in catching em' young (JV in the 1st year), and sending them to training camps far away in the mountains (Mussoorie). It is interesting to ponder over the question if it is JV that is to be blamed or the people who follow it here at IIIT ? That said, a more pertinent question remains : Is there a JV 9/11 round the corner ?
PS : The Al-Qaeda comparisons to JV are obviously satirical. But isn't the problem pretty much correctly described ?
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An Update
After reading this post, Prof.Sangal commented via email. His reply can be read here
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58 comments:
it is probably a religion in its nappies , but probably the ppl affected by it shud show more participation to prevent it being the next al-qaeda .
very true!!
it's like we don't hate IIIT but we hate ppl running it..
Autonomy to educational institutes is good to a certain extent but like all other freedoms in nation this autonomy is abused in various ways.
MSBR , JV all is an example!!
Why should ideology(religion) of a director must be introduced as a course and that to compulsory?
Why should research be imposed on students?
btw on a side note number of people opting for Phd in DD batch is lower that of in 4 year batch.
And total no of students/total no students opting for Phd from IIIT is far lesser than any of the IIT's.
You can't force your ideology on us. We will retaliate for sure.
in a nutshell, all these (courses, shivirs, bhakti music in NBH mess) are systematically hijacking the ideological fabric of the institute... ofcourse if ever there was one in the first place
JV is not a religion at all. It simply states that we need to set our priorities first in order to be happy and satisfied. Which is what perhaps our parents would tell you. Are your parents then preaching a new religion to you? Aren't you going to tell them to focus more on other problems at home rather than preaching you? I hope not.
Dealing with other problems like placements, etc can be done irrespective of whether you attend JV or not. If you are unhappy with someone dealing with his/her responsibility, please go and talk to the person first and tell him what he is doing wrong.
Regarding Prof. Vinish Gupta, I had taken up a course under him and I think he has a broad vision and makes his students analyze a topic from different perspectives.
During my stay at iiit too, I had seen a rising trend to name anything "uncool" or unacceptable by students as "JVish".
Treating JV as another religion being imposed on you is a very harsh statement. And I am surprised such a post is coming from a MS student. Expressing your views is certainly your right. That is what a responsible person should have done - state the facts and leave the conclusion up to us.
@anonymous conducting a shivir is far different than parents preaching a child. Parents preach their children because they are small and need to be guided. JV is conducted for people 18 upwards and at that age, it becomes a wee bit irritating when things are shoved down your throat. Not that I have something personal against JV but I'm just saying that it should be taught to people when they are ready to appreciate it.
Frankly speaking this child analogy has been used far too often. Please come with better examples to justify the need to conduct a JV.
Conduct a introductory session of JV for lets say 2-3 hours, make it compulsory and after that let it be voluntary for if we can decide whom to vote for at 18, we can very well decide whether or not we want to attend the JV session. I didn't attend the JV session when it was my turn to, I sort of bunked it, but then I attended it in Mussorie and I found the whole idea of JV rather interesting. Besides, an institute with a residential hostel is not really an environment to teach or preach JV. In nutshell, there is absolutely nothing wrong with JV as long as it is treated just like any other course and students are allowed to make their own minds up about it. But unfortunately the way things are being run in IIIT, JV (with no fault of its own) is going to have a starker image amongst the majority of the students. For the preachers of JV, a tiny suggestion, a thing (however sweet it may be), the moment you make it compulsory, it begins to feel like an unnecessary burden.
@ The second anon
1. Don't give me the parenting crap. IIIT is not my mum/dad. The faster everybody understands the better.
2. When we have gone to people with issues, they have told us that they are too busy with "Stuff" and they can't help us. Running the institute should be priority 1. Do what you want at home. But please work in college at least during "Business Hours". You can't stop office hours for weeks to attend shivirs.
3. I have no problem with Vinish Gupta. I have heard from various sources that he is really nice. My problem is with Prof.Marathe being forced out. Would you care to find out why he is missing?
4. Faculty members do give direct explanations from JV to justify things from the attendance policy, to controlling student movement, to washing dishes. That's just not on. What if we had a right bias on campus and everybody had to wear dhoti's or what if we had a left bias and people were forced to disassociate themselves from religion ? is that on ?
5. This is a satirical post Einstein. I can write like a lawyer too. And it's not my job to "put facts out there". I'm not your friendly neighborhood reporter.
The most sickening part of JV is that it is being enforced. Even if we consider JV not to be a religion but just an ideology, who gives anyone a right to force it upon students. Unfortunately, I took a course under our director last semester and it was like living in the Galileo age. Any argument raised by the students during the class was suppressed. He was always adamant on his beliefs just like the church was in Galilean era.
Much has changed over the past years. Establishment of a Center for Exact Humanities (Aren't we an "Institute of Information Technology") has provided them an easy way to carry on all these activities in the campus. While we still don't have proper faculty to teach ECE students, you are welcome to join CEH as a faculty, Ph.D candidate or whatever you like.
Another objection I have is that most of the professors teaching HSSM courses are in no way qualified for it. Attending some shivirs of Jeevan Vidya doesn't make you qualified to talk about Humanities. Someone said "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing". Not for you, but I believe it is certainly proving dangerous for students.
It is a severely UNCOOL kind of thing I will say. I mean it sounds supremely gay that there is something called "Jeevan Vidya" in our college. Honestly "Discipline Committee" had its fans, hell I still fear that name... but Jeevan Vidya? LAAAAAAAAAAAAAAME!!!!
OK on serious thought, I think the students shud inform their parents that they are teaching a new religion. Like, the way evolution is removed from christian schools, can JV be removed from our college?
Crap even that sounded like a joke. but i have nothing 2 say other than a joke, because JV will always remain a joke to me. Sadly the joke is going to eat everything up in the institute.
after reading this post... JV seems like some conspiracy to me :D.
@Shiben: My only concern is that the people at helm in this institute will force our parents also to go through JV 'shvirs', just so that they can decide whether they want their children to be preached the 'new religion'! I love my parents too much to make them go through this grind :D (My mum wouldn't be able to sit on the ground thanks to her arthritis ;) )
On a more serious note, like a lot of people have mentioned, the problem is that at 18 something, we are still forced to do things that we might not agree with. Besides, in my opinion, the way it is conducted is also quite lame. You keep sitting from morning till afternoon. If you lean against the wall, to relieve your back, a certain Rohit Gupta would come in and stare at you in a way you would feel you are the biggest criminal alive on planet earth! And as if this is not enough, there are tutorial sessions to clarify doubts. Where is the time to reflect upon what has been preached during he day time when you are attending the shivir for practically 7 to 8 hours a day! To add to the woes, there would be assignments. Complete hogwash!!
Rishab is bored, and wants some action! So, what does he do - write a post with intimidating title, with material that has been going around in multiple forums for the last four years. With almost nothing new to add.
A person who does not realize this - will consider this humorous satire (similar to naked gun!) as a serious post, and get offended either way (whether they like JV or not).
People have a good laugh and ignore the post!
The whole problem lies in the fact that more attention is given to JV than any other thing in the institute.
They preach about motives, no forcing n stuff and what they follow "Do the entire shivir or else you wont get your degree". What followers :S. Truly JV
Our respectable Dr. Sangal wouldn't care about placements, fee hike, or for that matter about the courses that he takes but would make sure not to miss a single JV session, or Human Society course. Anyone care to explain this ?
About Marathes, I've heard English was made a optional course, and they weren't even consulted so they sent a resignation mail to the director which was never replied back to. So any person having some self-respect would leave the institute.
@ Anonymous
Ok dude. You had me there. I concede was really bored when I wrote this. And you, who can't even spell my name correctly, seem to be one for the details ! If you are ignorant yourself it's one thing. But when you advocate it for others that's too bad.
LOL nice sarcasm dude ! You must have freaked some people out looking at the anony comments :P
@second anon: Dude being anonymous shows that you lack confidence or actually do not believe in what you say .. So i do not give a damn about your opinion right now .... You should reveal your identity and then say whatever you want to to Rishab's face ... Your opinions might be more valued then
JV has become the single reason for IIIT's existence today. The EC program lies in tatters and the placements for the EC students are going to the dogs but we are more than happy to introduce JV in various disguises in the form of HSSMs ..... The Talibani attitude of IIIT management to force their ideology on students by way of 2 Human values compulsory courses and a compulsory JV shivir is turning out to be the downfall of IIIT on academic front .... The institute pays handsome salaries to external faculties to came and teach JV HSSMs but they cannot find enough "competent" faculty to teach the basic core course of the EC program nor can they spend enough money to make the EC labs equipped with the most basic equipments that even a local college supports ....
JV is not really a religion ... it is more of a 'cult', a rapidly expanding cult.
And as we all know, cults tend to be more dangerous to its members than the other outsiders. So, you dont have to worry Rishabh, but you might certainly have to pity and look out for the self-destruction that might come about anytime among the JVites.
All those who read this must also read
http://prasantgopal.com/blog/?p=435
and
http://prasantgopal.com/blog/?p=376
and
http://prasantgopal.com/blog/?p=405
for an earlier and detailed discussion (that Rishabh is aware of). In order to avoid repetition of comments kindly respond after reading these.
All newbies will be aware of complete set of issues.
Anonymous 3: :P
1) I totally empathize with you guys on this. It takes something to understand what a religion is. Not everyone understands what it is.
2) And yes you are absolutely right. If people start following it blindly without understanding it then it will definitely become a religion soon. (JVism? :D). But anyone sensible should at least appreciate the fact that all efforts are being put in to ensure it does not become a cult or religion.
3) Anyone who understands it will know what a religion is. And that JV is just a hint towards reality, and it does not claim that everyone has to follow only this path to understand reality.
4) Not everyone who is associated with JV is a "resolved soul" and so obviously there will be mistakes just like anyone who is not using JV to think. Some might be associated just because their bosses are associated.
5) I have noticed that many times 18 yrs was used to tell that one is grown-up. You all know how mature your friends are. How many have acquired the capacity to take good decisions? Especially the kids (not all) who are coming through these entrance exams are the ones who are least exposed to life. Many don't even understand how important and sensitive relationships are. So, I strongly feel that everyone can be exposed to this atleast once.
6)I feel very sorry for you guys. Our director is transparent enough not to change the name into a "Life Skills 101" and conduct this course. None of you would have even dared to utter a word. Infact you would even know that it was JV. Unfortunately even though in the workshop the fact that this is just a proposal is told a hundred times, we just ignore it.
I am not writing this response for rishab because I know how "mature" he is. I am writing this for all the other friends here. I thought its important for each one of us to put ourselves in the shoes of the other before we comment.
nice post!!
you said what I always wanted to say but more clearly and with analogy ;)
But why are more of students not coming to front against it, if they feel like this?
@Anonymous 3: If you didn't notice, the point of the post not really JV or it being a religion. It is more about the cost at which it is coming. Probably -- from an indophilic perspective, in the best interest of our country INDIA -- one could think that JV could be an ultimate super natural power that offers solutions to everything ranging from relationship problems to core technical P!=NP type problems. But I don't subscribe to this viewpoint and many students too.
Students have come to perceive that the over-emphasis on JV is coming at a cost. And the scape goats (students lives) in this process have to bear the costs. The efforts toward JV could have been directed toward handling other pertinent issues: drop in course quality, lab facilities, delay in graduation of MSBR students, placements of ECE, MSBR students and so on.
Its been 2.5yrs since i left IIITH ..
and i think around 4.5yrs since JV-isation of IIITH started ..
Faculty still persists
Students still rant
This fellow i know has been doing this over and over and over ... writing incendiary posts.
What changed ?? .. Nothing changed ...
This obvly is not the correct forum to discuss this . If really a large mass of students have a problem with it , hold a FSIS discuss , debate and resolve .
hmm isn't Felicity around the corner? Can we going to have that graffiti competition this year too, please please?
I want to write a giant, pink:
I <3 J V \m/
If you choose the right judges, I may win.
*are we
(Wasting a comment on a typo. Sorry, Rishabh)
@ Anonymous 3
Thank you for enlightening us on how "mature" I am. It's a pity we wont have a chance to thank you for it because you didn't write your name. I wonder why .....
All those who seem to hate JV, are really the ones who are feeling recursive peer pressure to externally say they hate JV.
Anyone who has attended JV shivir, has found at least one proposal made naturally acceptable to them. For example, what is naturally acceptable to you (i) to be treated with respect or (ii) to be treated with disrespect.
The truth is that you cannot withstand introspecting and then taking decisions with right understanding, it scares you about what others will think (you cannot handle it!). Even though you know fully well what is the right thing to do, you take a decision otherwise, as a fashion statement (to gain temporary recognition and no real respect).
So, before you say anything about JV, introspect, be brave, evaluate your right understanding, and do the right thing. Otherwise, you are just faking your hatred towards JV. The truth is that you cannot hate or dislike JV. Period.
I am glad to see these posts - that way all those who read these will get their JV basics revised. It is a catch-22 situation, if you do not read this you cannot get my momentary happiness of knowing who all hate JV and why, if you read the posts your JV concepts get revised, which you may not like. Nice post. We should all thank Rishabh (who inherently likes JV, see above) for enabling this.
Raina - it seems you are more scared about your parents liking JV than worrying about whether your parents can sit through it, introspect and decide for yourselves.
Dude/Dudette above, one,it was said in a light vein! Two, the fact of the matter is I was 21 odd when I joined this institute, grown up enough to make most practical decisions of my life. In any case, I have not needed my parents to decide on such trivial things for me for almost 7 years now. They trust me enough for them to feel the need to intrude. :)
The irony of your comment is that the fact that you choose to stay anonymous suggests you yourself are not confident enough to support JV in public. In other words, "you cannot handle it"! If you do choose to endorse/support it through your comments, might as well do it with some conviction and guts! :D
lol.... maar li Raina Di...
For the JVites who think students are stupid, ignorant people who need to be taught how to live life... I feel pity for you...
Correction: "They trust me enough to not feel the need to intrude." :P (excuse the typo)
After getting fucked by my advisor, I thought attending Jeevan Vidya would be nice and soothing. That's what they claim to be, realzing the inner stuff. After attending just a day of it, I thought I should somehow get my advisor attend JV and avenge my torture.
Situational jokes apart, but yes, imposing your own over others is like RAPE. In this case, it's a mental rape not a physical one. What they claim to be giving is hint but in reality it is distorting and corrupting the thoughts of a young brain with incomplete, incorrect and childish views. Over the top of that it's first year people who have to tolerate it.
Moreover, there are people in the room who make it even more torturous. They have random ideas which radiates from the nucleus of black holes in their mind and they utter it out and force it over the audience.
If there are people who are coming after clearing highly competitive examinations does not mean that stupids are in. You are also wrong to assume that most of the people were forced by social actors to become an engineer. I dont fuck understand why we kicked out Marathe and made a dance course compulsory[I heard so]. Is it because someone think that influence of English is corrupting young mind ?
JV should be optional for students. What people need to think is TIME not JV.
My state of mind :
Four years back : I can sacrifice my life for this institute.
Now : I feel as if I should take someone's life for this very institute :(
I loved this place!
@All either do something ground breaking or just stop fighting for fuck sake.
Good comments Raina - but tell us - wasn't there even a single thing in JV that you found useful even after being a mature 21 year old. Wasn't there at least one non-trivial aspect that you did not know earlier and were not enriched by it.
There are various ways of learning things. Some people are forced to stand in river water early in the morning practice music. Some people are forced to memorize tables, and so on. Similarly, people teaching JV mandate that it should be conducted in that matter.
Concrete examples are lacking as to what is it content wise that is lacking in JV or not acceptable (you need to be very specific). So, provide constructive feedback on JV through student academic council, if you have any issues. Just saying I hate something - does not sell, and meaningless.
@above Anonymous
Dude The issue is not whether we find JV teachings to be true or not .. that constitutes a separate debate all together
The question is : Why are we said that If you do not attend the JV shivir in first year you will get an F grade in HV 2 course .. Why are two Human Values courses imposed on us in the first year ? This being when JV claims that there should be no fear of punishment as a reason to do a task ... Please answer specifically on this question
and yes, as Raina said ... If you cannot reveal your identity, your convictions about JV are in doubt as you too fear what your friends will say if you openly endorse JV So stop calling others a coward and take a nice good look in the mirror
@anonymous the problem as already mentioned above is not above JV but at what cost is it being furthered.
Take for example a typical first year guy. The moment he steps into the college, there is a JVized mentor who bores him with existential questions like what are we? why are we here? what are relationships?, etc. Once or twice a week, classes are held to make this brainwash more systematic. And then, once a new semester begins, a complete shivir is conducted to deeply etch these theories into the minds. Subsequently followed by tutorials and assignments to make sure they don't forget these.
And the final blow... take HSSMs and we are bored with the same stuff. Who are we? Why are we doing what we are doing? Are we happy with out life? Is there contentment in life...?
What is all this? Ain't it some systematic hijack of ideology of this institute? I mean what do people want to achieve by asking such questions? People at some point of time become aware enough to ask themselves these questions. Kafka, Nietzsche, kikergard, Dostoyevsky, etc. never took a shivir to ask such questions to themselves. Neither did they force their ideology on anyone.
Dear Honorable Anonymous.
I have refrained from saying this all along, but given the shape this discussion is taking I think it's better. The current setup with JV is a gross misuse of the offices of power in IIIT. JV in IIIT is not a popular movement. JV is on the agenda of a small but influential section of the faculty who have decided that the masses must be made of aware of the "enlightenment" provided by JV. The various initiatives introduced in the campus have been implemented not on their merits(or even popular acceptance) but rather on the basis of the clout of their promoters, against the wishes of the majority of students and faculty. While you may not realize it, most of these measures are a complete violation of the privacy of an individual. Stop hankering about the benefits of JV. That is not what is being discussed here. As some of the vocal proponents of JV have themselves said, they are "Forcing people to feel true freedom". If you can't see the irony in that.....
@Anonymous: Wish you could shed some light on the credentials of the people teaching the JV mandate to us, the 'lesser mortals'. :|
Do you seriously think that you can win in jugglery of words against these people?
I guess this was already discussed in prashant gopals post that faculty is world-class as far as word-tricks are concerned. I mean srsly you need to get a training in debates and arguments and language and blah blah...
We weren't even able to interpret what they wrote in brochure about propects of 5 year course.
So if you think by writing such posts and giving your rather lame arguments you can convince them, I bow to you!
University is a place where you ought to be educated, get to know yourselves, be able to understand and realize things in a right manner, and learn to live.
Unfortunately, most universities have become skill-givers rather than educators. Those who are interested in these universities should join them.
IIIT's aim is to prepare its students for their last job, not the first job. It aims to enable student realize his/her potential as a human being, and to live in the world with mutual prosperity and happiness.
The institute has compulsory core curriculum which includes human values as life-skills for every facet of your life. There is nothing wrong in providing this education. If there are questions on content of the courses let there be a discussion.
i wonder who those 4 losers who voted for "NO" in the poll!!!
Get a life dudes....
@rishabh: Good going man! Dont care abt the anonys....ball(s) less idiots.
@Lakshya
This last comment leaves nothing more to be added. The guy before you rightly says "jugglery of words".
Why don't you people understand that we are the ones who have gone through all this. We won't be doing those shivirs again. Whatever had to happen with us happened. This is not for our sake, this for sake of coming batches.
ok we won't utter a word against all you JV but at least do something for them. Let them get out of this place in 5 years and ensure them a decent enough job.
If all your JV can't make you understand that 5 years means 5 years, placement prospects means placement prospects we really don't expect anything from you.
If all your JV can't make you understand that you have played with trust of 17-18 year old kids then even God can't grant you satisfaction of fulfillment or whatsoever.
And see trust is a thing which your parents teach you, which you teachers in Nursery and KG teach you. If you don't even value that for God sake don't claim to be educators.
Before i write my comment, a certain disclaimer:
a) im NOT the anonymous commentor, who is being asked to reveal his identity. I do not know him. Im a different person.
b) the comments below are my personal views. They should not be taken as those representing views of anyone else. And therefore they should not be generalized.
My comments....
1. of what i understood from your blog, you dont seem to have a problem with the general content of jv philosophy, but the problem seem to be with the way it is being implemented in iiit. I feel, that would also be the case with most of the commentors, as i found no comment on the content, but only on its implementation (and some personal comments). I also feel somewhere the comments diluted the seriousness of your post, as they seemed more like taking out personal frustration rather than discussing a problem. I beleive your post was more than taking out personal frustration.
2. I understand that two major issues you have regarding its implementation are a) why is it being made compulsory and b) the so called people associated with jv are not the best of examples themselves. I agree with both the points. I agree that why should something like jv needs to be made compulsory. But then im unable to answer a larger question. What are the parameters which decide which course should be made compulsory and which should not? I do not know. And therefore this issue remains open for me now. Ideally in my view, no course should be compulsory. As many commentors pointed out, we are adults and therefore by logic sensible enough to take decisions. So why should anything at all be compulsory? I've heard that when iiit started, the system of taking attendance was not there. But soon they had to implement it. Can we as a student community stand together and decide that let there be no attendance system at all? Can we among ourselves guarantee that we would do classes seriously. If the attendance rule is abolished, then nothing remains compulsory.
3. Im my view (and i repeat its my personal opinion), coaching centre was a place where it was required to be single mindedly focussed, where there was just one goal. But once we enter college, i would want to see an open environment, where one is given exposure to various things. The idea is to expand one's world view, to know about new things, to venture into unheard territories. I personally would not want to see iiit as a place which trains you for getting a job. Even some of the business schools have stopped doing that i beleive.
4. For most of the comments, i found nothing 'adult' about them (except some words). Lets come up with some adult arguments.
Harsh
@above: "problem with the general content of jv philosophy"
Man you are simply hilarious!!
Do you think we listen to what all crap those "word jugglers" say. Do you seriously think so???
Forcing us to sit there is a different thing, they can never make us listen to all that!
Al-Qa'ida uses guns and bombs to threaten people, they use F's.
Fate of both shall be same!
The way IIIT is run now, if someday government wants to bring it under control of HRD ministry, i and many others will fully support it.
@lakshya Would you care to explain how is the entire process of Jeevan Vidya helping us find our last jobs?
As far as saying that humanities help in all facets of human life,
UGC or AICTE doesn't have any such courses listed in their recommended course list at all. And I'm in no position to believe that professors with near zero experience of teaching humanities can frame courses in humanities. Tomorrow I can say that web designing helps at all times in a software engineer's career and therefore should be taught as a compulsory subject. Worse still I (with zero experience) will go and teach the students web designing.
I'm sorry to say but your way of looking at things reeks of 70s style communist USSR.
First, I am also not the Anonymous!
Sashidhar,
The easiest thing that an university can do is teach you vocational subjects, and train you to get a job (like Chaintya/Bansals' do for AIEEE).
If this is what you wanted then IIIT is not the place. So, kindly inform all those who plan on coming to IIIT, that this is not such place.
First, university should help students broaden their approach, they should be able to qualitatively discuss issues based on deep understanding, and not on superficial assumptions. The students should be able to understand whatever problem they face at work, at home, at society, at nation, or in existence, and be able to at least figure how to formulate it and work on its solution. It is this education a student should crave for, and this what they are paying for.
The education that university gives should be universal - it will not change with time (the concepts learnt can be applied), it will not change based on place you live (the same concepts will be applicable if you change the location of your home/job), it is applicable (that is it is useful for you to analyze other things or concepts, evaluate problems, develop solutions using these concepts. The implementation of solution will depend on space and time.
For example, 20 years ago in US a solution would be UNIX/Pascal, but in India it would have been IBM MVS/Cobol. The things you have learnt in a university, you would be able to program (by learning the syntax), and deploying the solution on the respective OS. If we concentrate only on the implementation aspect, and not on concepts then it would have been difficult for you to do this. The theory aspects of courses give you deep concepts, and practice gives you some implementation exposure. The concepts help you for your last job, and ability learn helps you pickup implementation level details any time in your life.
If all you are good at passing placement tests, then the first day the company gives you an assignment, which requires independent and different thinking you may not succeed.
Second, at IIIT, you are joining because you are among the top students in the country, the expectations are different from you. You should be able to meet up with that expectations with responsibility. If you cannot do it, you should not come here. Let someone though less qualified than you but who can take up that responsibility is much more welcome that someone who came here for much lesser goals that could be satisfied when they go to any lesser place.
It has to be known to all that you came here to IIIT because this what interests you, and you are committed to it.
>>Second, at IIIT, you are joining because you are among the top students in the country, the expectations are different from you. You should be able to meet up with that expectations with responsibility.
True.
Same should be true for the faculty, and their performances in courses and the quality of course as perceived by students who take them.
While no one denies the teaching quality at IIIT remains quite good, and there are profs like Dr Kamal and Dr PJN who are simply awesome in their course preparation and delivery, there have been instructors/courses who are far from satisfactory.
Now the question is why not have a proper feedback mechanism and enact it. Most good universities have a scoring mechanism and publish the scores openly, for the good of both students and faculty. Sadly IIIT never considers it worthwhile to provide an open and constructive feedback.
How about taking one for JV courses?
>> The students should be able to understand whatever problem they face at work, at home, at society, at nation, or in existence, and be able to at least figure how to formulate it and work on its solution.
Did the existing students who took the course provide this in their feedback?
If yes, and if the averages are in favor, this blogger (author) should shut up, and if not, may be it should be a good reason to cancel the course.
Alumni,
Feedback is taken and actions are taken. We cannot have trigger jerk reaction when dealing with instructors, especially those who are very young in their career. The students feedback are discussed with faculty members and they are asked to improve.
Faculty who took their teaching with lot less sincerity are no-longer there with the institute.
The course feed back is used to judge the quality of course syllabus and delivery. Just because the delivery is bad the course need not be considered as not suitable.
Almost all students who took Human Values course found them to be beneficial and have learnt something they did not know earlier and that can be applied.
If you are alumni in Hyderabad you can attend the course on Saturdays. Even other wise you can attend the complete shivir.
All alumni must sincerely attend the shivir before they get carried away by assumptions of others that HV course is not beneficial. Only when you attend you can gauge it yourselves. Hope you are a family person now (married with kids and in-laws), and in early management role, you will find it lot more rewarding. You could also bring some of your classmates, and have a reunion along with JV shivir.
"I’m not a prophet, I only know about ribosomes" - Venkatraman Ramakrishnan
I guess that kind of approach an institute like IIIT-H should have. Not preaching about how to live life, but focus on teaching what they know best(their areas of research).
@lakshya
The arguement that you advance : people "should" attend the JV course and find out for themselves if it is good. That is the key -- "should". Why does the management at IIIT make it compolsory ? At least after this debate, JV should be made an option -- discover this particluar way of life if u want to ..... JV ppl assume that we are all ignorant and that hey need to to grab us by our finger and teach us how to walk ... why ? We never asked for it ... tell us that there is something called JV and leave it upon us to find out if we are interested .... We may want to attend the shivir only 3 days and them I may find it not good .... As Prof. Sangal replied .. I evaluated JV and found it unacceptable .... Now tell me why are we forced to attend it for 7 complete days ? Please answer specifically on this question. Isn't this a Talibani attitude ... Do what we say or suffer our wrath (in this case an F grade).
Secondly as for the faculty feedback .... I can sincerely say that proper feedback evaluation is done only for CS courses ... The feedback forms of the EC courses go straight to the garbage bin .... Despite numerous FSIS sessions etc. the college has turned a blind eye towards EC branch ..... no matter what you say, EC brach is given a step motherly treatment .......... And this is what rishab is saying : Instead of focusing on priority branches like EC we are happier to focus all attention on JV ... JV itself is not bad ... the overemphasis laid on it by IIIT is bad
And just a reminder : please reply to my above question specifically : Why can't a student stop attending the shivir after say 3 days if he finds it not good ? Why do you people take attendance in the shivir ?
Most of the comments in favour of JV say that IIIT has introduced JV so that students can broaden their approach. Its great that IIIT is caring for students, but in simple words, I would like to say this - "Let me decide when and where I want to broaden my approach. Stop taking decisions on my behalf."
hi
value education for adults is something that i also disagree with. and having known JV people at close hand, I can agree with you that it has evangelical undertones. kudos to you for speaking up.
some posts of mine about these issues (including JV at IIIT) are here:
http://harmanjit.blogspot.com/search/label/Education%20and%20college%20life
Your posts are now linked to at:
http://nonspiritual.net/A_Nagraj_Sharma
well, we all know how good the decisions of this college can be. If you need proof, just walk from library to motorola looking on your right. The structure standing there tells you the story.
JV has all the markings of a cult:
1. Truth here is as revealed by one man only - its propounder.
2. The belief in ONE RIGHT and many wrongs. and the goal of the philosophy to unite mankind under this ONE RIGHT where RIGHT is only as defined by JV all other definitions are invalid or lacking according to JV.(Hall mark of any fundamentalist thought)
3. The staunch belief of its followers is there IS or CAN BE nothing WRONG in JVs axioms, when someone clearly points out a contradiction in its teachings that person will be branded CONFUSED because he could not forget his earlier pre-concepts before starting JV study. The possibility the JV s axioms are contradictory simply cannot exist.
4. There is a tendency among its followers to act like animals living in packs blindly following a leader's dictate. Anyone who does not fit into the clan or questions the dictate is quickly sidelined and rusticated. So much for people who talk of living in animal consciousness as bad, they themselves behave like wild animals when it comes to enforcing their version of what right conduct should be.
Though its basic message is very simple and alluring, the manner in which they are messing with young minds in such a mandatory fashion is absolutely wrong and contradictory to its goals.
I got to ask , How many people share similar attitude as of the author of the post ?
Is there a way out there to collect the opinion of people and see how many feel the same ?
Hi,
Read your opinions above. I am 35 yrs old, an Ex Dept Head at an IT-MNC and now a full time student of this philosophy or 'knowledge-system'. It appears to me that your opinions are based on a very preliminary introduction in the 7 day workshop. I personally so not have any comments on the IIIT experiment. Should you feel like, you can read more about what this ACTUALLY is at http://www.madhyasth-darshan.info
Cheers!
Oh, another point: Madhyasth Darshan is the name of the aphorisms on reality as experienced/known by A Nagraj, the propounder. 'Coexistentialism' is another name for the above, when presented in dialectic form.. 'Existence based Human centric Contemplation' is the the name when seen from the point of view of placement of the Human Being vis a vis the rest of Existence/Universe.
lastly, 'Jeevan Vidya' is the name of the common program to take information of this research to common people, like you and me :-)
http://www.madhyasth-darshan.info
From Naveen Chandra
Reflections on the Workshop on the so called Madhyastha Darshana
Om,
Sahanaabhavatu sahanaubhunaktu sahaveeryam karavaavahi,
Tejasvinaavadheetamastu maavidvishaavahi.
Om Shanti Shanti Shanti hi.
OM!
There are several problems with Jeevan Vidya as proposed by Mr. Facilitator.
1. Atma is described as something that does not exist in matter, plants and animals. This is a view of Abrahaamic Religions. Dharma does not hold this view. Upanishads and Geeta are still authorities on Atma.
2. Atma should be taken out of jeevan leaving only four levels. Geeta defines Atma as existent in every object. As such for Jeevan Vidya to take a term from previous literature and use it for something else is disingenuous to say the least. It is something like using the term electron for some other object ignoring the previous well established usage. Jeevan Vidya should use some other term for the fifth level in their Jeevan.
3. The contention that science is a belief system as proposed is baseless. If science is not knowledge nothing else is.
4. That the universe is deterministic, a view held by Madhwachaarya, of Dwaita school, is totally untenable.
5. That there is no sorrow in the world is very naive proposition.
6. Every new philosophy that came along claimed it was better than the all previous systems. The glaring examples are Christianity, Islam, Judaism, and Sikhism. But alas they failed to deliver.
7. The pretension that JV is seventh Darshan is debatable. The previous ones contributed to philosophy and metaphysics and stood the test of time. JV was proposed fifty years ago, already stealing the word Atma from previous systems and using it in a different meaning.
8. That human is equal to body plus jeevan is also debatable especially considering Atma's position in Jeevan. This duality is to be discoursed well. First proposed by Rene DesCartes later much discussed and kept hanging in the air.
9. Mr. Facilitator defines Brahman as energy, meaning for JV system Brahman is Sagun. Dharma has come a long way over thousands of years in fine tuning that Brahman is Nirgun. As a matter of fact to know Brahman as Nirgun is the ultimate knowledge. By denying this aspect JV again behaves like Lesser systems of knowledge.
10. Contrary to the claims that JV is verifiable, Mr.Facilitator makes statements for which there is no verification. An example is Mr. Nagaraj's claim, as stated by the Facilitator, that he saw life on other planets with his naked eyes is not at all verifiable. Another claim that there is no sorrow in the world is easily refutable. Another claim that Brahman is determinable is not verifiable either. A philosophy that says it’s verifiable fails on crucial litmus tests for verification.
There are many features of this seventh Darshana that do not stand the logical scrutiny. I wanted to voice these factors but let it go. Now I can't keep quiet. Darshanas became Darshanas because Rishis agreed that to be so. For example Vaiseshika postulated particle nature of matter that stood the test of time. Saankhya elaborated knowledge path to self realization achieved by Adi Shankara among others. Meemaamsa was debated by Adi Shankara and Mandana Misra.Yoga stood the test of time. Vedanta gave clear conceptions of Conscious. What did Madhyastha Darshana do except borrowing words from Geeta and twisting their meaning? Besides there is no recorded approval from learned persons that JV was accepted as a Darshana. Only we have the word of Mr. Nagaraj. In view of these matters I can't endorse JV as a philosophical system.
Note: The members refused to have a dialogue on the ten points raised. JV claims it does not consider Shrutis and Smritis as authorities on philosophy but does not hesitate to use the ideas expressed in them to advance its own agenda.
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